Former leading New Zealand publisher and bookseller, and widely experienced judge of both the Commonwealth Writers Prize and the Montana New Zealand Book Awards, talks about what he is currently reading, what impresses him and what doesn't, along with chat about the international English language book scene, and links to sites of interest to booklovers.
Friday, March 23, 2012
Apostrophes ? Roger Hall asks the question.
How can Penguin, of all people, publish a book called
Fleur's Place and have it on the cover (twice) without an apostrophe?
Roger Hall
21 comments:
don donovan
said...
and how Miriam Margolis advertise 'Dickens' Women'? Long live Roger Hall, me and all brave pedants.
Um, I've had two means at Fluers in Moeraki over the last six weeks, and I don't remember seeing an apostrophe in the signage of the restaurant? It might be how the owner has named her restaurant ... well worth a visit by the way, and Fluer will give you the local colour.
Fleur uses both apostrophied & non-apostrophied versions for her wonderful eateries...just possibly, the author & publishers asked her?
My whanau visits Fleur's whenever we want a quiet celebration. However, looking at some of the comments on a couple of threads relating to the eateries, I have to agree that, just occaisionally, some of the staff let the places down.
Maybe Fleurs Place is considered, with considerable pretention, to be a geographic entity, like Martins Bay, St Heliers Bay (the exception being Hawke's Bay). Anyway, pedants die old but die eventually. An organisation in Britain is dedicated to the death of the apostrophe, and I would join if I were there (he said using the defunct subjunctive. Robert Conquest once wrote that people are reactionary on things they know about. Gordon McLauchlan
As a working sub-editor (and, by necessity these days, a proofreader too - there, I've given my age away) I am not at all surprised that Fleurs Place is missing its apostrophe. Saddened, yes, but not surprised.
A story through my hands recently was about a fundraising ladies' night - ladie's, lady's, etc.
I saw the book on the counter in the restaurant, and wish I'd bought it now. Perhaps she says in it why she doesn't use an apostrophe in the title?
And as for Penguin, well aren't they in a bit of a bind? If the restaurant itself, in the sign over the door, says Fleurs, for whatever reason including Fleur may be a cook, not a grammatician, then doesn't the book have to be faithful to the sign. That's what it is in actual fact called.
Perhaps she doesn't mean Fleur's as in her's, but as in Fleurs.
(I'm trying so hard to ensure there's no typos in this post, it hurts).
It should be Dickens's Women, not Dickens' Women. Ms Margolyes may very well say that Dickens' Women is 'euphonious' but I doubt if Dickens would have agreed; after all he himself wrote in Oliver Twist: 'a pattering noise was heard upon the stairs, and Sikes's dog bounded into the room.'
We keep up with the Joneses, but can we keep up with the Joneses' dog? Joneses's? No. I'd say Dickens's Women, too, but surely Dickens' Women is OK. I've just cast an eye over my daughter's essay on Le Morte Darthur. That's right, Darthur. The apostrophe's a relatively recent invention, and nothing to get riled about.
Fleur explains in her biography, just called Fleur, no tricky apostrophes: 'Broadcaster Kim Hill asked me why there was no apostrophe in the name and I tried to explain that I didn't have a sense of ownership. The restaurant is just as it is. She didn't sound convinced.'
Dickens' Dickens's - isn't it a matter of style? Both are correct.
Yes, Tim, I'm with you on this one. Both Dickens' Women and Dickens's Women are correct so if Miriam finds the former more euphonious, she is quite entitled to use it!
21 comments:
and how Miriam Margolis advertise 'Dickens' Women'? Long live Roger Hall, me and all brave pedants.
Don Donovan
Roger says I spelled Margolyes wrongly. Now I've betrayed my fellow pedants. OMG!
Don.
Um, I've had two means at Fluers in Moeraki over the last six weeks, and I don't remember seeing an apostrophe in the signage of the restaurant? It might be how the owner has named her restaurant ... well worth a visit by the way, and Fluer will give you the local colour.
... I was right. Have a look at Fleur's own website for Fleurs restaurant. (No time to make clicky, sorry).
http://www.fleursplace.com/Moeraki.htm
No apostrophe.
So pedants move along please. Nothing to see here ;)
OMG myself. That's 'meals' in my first post.
Removing myself in shame.
Ah ah ah, and I spelt Fleur wrong.
Fleur uses both apostrophied & non-apostrophied versions for her wonderful eateries...just possibly, the author & publishers asked her?
My whanau visits Fleur's whenever we want a quiet celebration. However, looking at some of the comments on a couple of threads relating to the eateries, I have to agree that, just occaisionally, some of the staff let the places down.
I am a passionate advocate of the apostrophe & regard it as a bellwether of the health of a society.
Best-MM
(from Miriam Margoyles to Roger Hall)
I have the answer.
Penguin should have called it
FLEURS (SIC) PLACE
For the record, I retract all typos in my first post, including 'means' = 'meals', and Fluers/Fluer's for Fleurs/Fleur's.
There. That'll help my recovery from that post.
Maybe Fleurs Place is considered, with considerable pretention, to be a geographic entity, like Martins Bay, St Heliers Bay (the exception being Hawke's Bay). Anyway, pedants die old but die eventually. An organisation in Britain is dedicated to the death of the apostrophe, and I would join if I were there (he said using the defunct subjunctive. Robert Conquest once wrote that people are reactionary on things they know about. Gordon McLauchlan
To Gordon. Death of the Apostrophe. So if it's too hard, let's kill it?
By the way, folks, M Margoyles first email message to me didn't get posted. She said "DICKENS'WOMEN is correct & euphonious."
what would the correct version of Dickens' Women be?
I mean, isn't Dickens' Women correct?
As a working sub-editor (and, by necessity these days, a proofreader too - there, I've given my age away) I am not at all surprised that Fleurs Place is missing its apostrophe. Saddened, yes, but not surprised.
A story through my hands recently was about a fundraising ladies' night - ladie's, lady's, etc.
And don't start me on you're/your ...
I saw the book on the counter in the restaurant, and wish I'd bought it now. Perhaps she says in it why she doesn't use an apostrophe in the title?
And as for Penguin, well aren't they in a bit of a bind? If the restaurant itself, in the sign over the door, says Fleurs, for whatever reason including Fleur may be a cook, not a grammatician, then doesn't the book have to be faithful to the sign. That's what it is in actual fact called.
Perhaps she doesn't mean Fleur's as in her's, but as in Fleurs.
(I'm trying so hard to ensure there's no typos in this post, it hurts).
It should be Dickens's Women, not Dickens' Women. Ms Margolyes may very well say that Dickens' Women is 'euphonious' but I doubt if Dickens would have agreed; after all he himself wrote in Oliver Twist: 'a pattering noise was heard upon the stairs, and Sikes's dog bounded into the room.'
Sikes's', Dickens's - the case rests.
We keep up with the Joneses, but can we keep up with the Joneses' dog? Joneses's? No. I'd say Dickens's Women, too, but surely Dickens' Women is OK.
I've just cast an eye over my daughter's essay on Le Morte Darthur. That's right, Darthur. The apostrophe's a relatively recent invention, and nothing to get riled about.
We're not getting riled, we're having fun.
We're not getting riled,we're having fun.
Fleur explains in her biography, just called Fleur, no tricky apostrophes: 'Broadcaster Kim Hill asked me why there was no apostrophe in the name and I tried to explain that I didn't have a sense of ownership. The restaurant is just as it is. She didn't sound convinced.'
Dickens' Dickens's - isn't it a matter of style? Both are correct.
Yes, Tim, I'm with you on this one. Both Dickens' Women and Dickens's Women are correct so if Miriam finds the former more euphonious, she is quite entitled to use it!
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